Him: your comments on the war are beautiful as well, let it be said that we can never forget
Him: How many have died before we even came into existence defending their land, and their families
Him: it's too bad foolishness of a few has to harm so many
Me: if we were seeing a positive effect it could be justified
Him: That is actually what I have trouble with
Me: but everyone i know over there has said that they feel like they are doing nothing
Him: what could the positive effect be?
Him: yes, it's a preventive war
Me: if that's all it is then we will never be out of there
Him: it wasn't even a liberation of the Iraqi people really, the regime was horrible, and that was documented but it wasn't the reason we attacked
Me: ever
Me: the middle east was in conflict before christ, what makes us think that a few years next to two thousand will show a breakthrough
Him: I don't know
Him: I really don't
Him: Since the two towers fell I have felt like the entire world is spiraling out of control downwards
Me: "wars and rumors of wars"
Him: I am not not sure what that quote means
Me: just a random thought...it's from the bible in reference to the events leading to the end of the world
Me: i don't think that is at hand, but still
Me: one can see why all the fundamentalists are uneasy
Him: yes, thanks, I agree actually
Him: maybe not the end, but I don't feel like WW3 is out of the question
Me: not at all
Him: and with nuclear capabilities maybe it would be the end of the world, I don't want to think about that
Me: and a war at this point in time with a lot of itchy fingers on a lot of very big triggers would not be a war
Him: yes
Me: it would be self-annihilation
Him: it is scary indeed
Him: there are way too many itchy fingers around the world too, including at this point in the US's leadership
Him: I mean this country has often taken up the defense, bomb them before they bomb us approach
Him: what is our justification for that?
Me: pearl harbor is the first and to my knowledge only time that we were directly attacked on our own ground, and now the twin towers
Me: there is no justification
Me: we are an extremely paranoid superpower
Him: yes
Him: I think Iraq only proved that ten fold
Me: though with the amount of countries that have the capability of the bomb, that is not hard to justify... it is when we act on it without proof of intent to attack that is unforgiveable
Me: it's like finding out afterwards that the guy you just sentenced to death was innocent....oops, sorry about that
Him: yup
Him: man, its unnerving
Me: i think of iraq as a neighbor with a bad kid...one of those days the kid just goes too far, so he gets slapped in jail, maybe even a death penalty, and for good measure we torch his house to make sure none of his brothers go the same way... then we find out that his brothers were all harvard grads working for the peace corps, so we say sorry mom, let me send you these food packets every holiday to make up for it, and expect things to be ok
Me: that's about what we're doing in afghanistan
Him: yes, that's an interesting comparison
Him: but it's almost like you can't win whether you are right or wrong, if there is a right and wrong
Me: no
Me: no you can't
Me: which is what our politicians have not yet understood
Me: cause and effect, my children
Him: It's surprising with the great minds up there though that these things aren't dwelt upon
Him: I mean we are both young and I don't know what we see different from them
Me: oh i'm sure they are at least thought about, a few minutes in the morning while in the shower
Me: but they are not conducive to our political standpoint
Him: lol, I don't believe it's that bad really, but it does seem like corporate policy outweighs morality
Him: Our government is not consumed with thoughts of the global good
Him: only its own
Me: no, i am without doubt a cynic when it comes to politics
Me: and most other things
Me: but i can't help but feel that our concern with the global good parallels our concern with what our neighbors think of us
Him: well is that global good or is it allies' good, or clan, or faction
Him: they are not the same, people know this
Me: for the most part
Him: but wait a sec though, maybe they don't know that
Him: I mean they think they are right, their faction is right so why would they think about anyone else
Me: alliances are not like friendships....you cannot be friendly with two enemies and expect them to remain friends with you
Me: picking sides becomes necessary
Him: yes, thats true
Me: yes, that is why holy wars came into being
Him: but what makes us allies on a global scale, politics?
Him: like democracy versus dictatorship
Me: killing in the name of god is even more fun than killing because you don't like someone
Him: hah, and more ridiculous
Me: a ridiculousness that costs lives... best tragicomedy the greeks could have come up with
Me: allies on a global scale?
Me: interests
Me: primarily economical
Me: slightly less so political (down with communism! have to stop russia!)
Him: yeah, but if someone else's economy doesn't work like mine I don't see why i hate them
Me: possibly occasionally charitable
Him: you know what I am saying?
Him: I just don't understand why they have such different goals
Me: no, i mean that our alliances are often formed for the sake of an economic benefit
Him: ah, ok, I got ya
Him: The old, if we take over Iraq, we keep its oil routine then
Him: or something similiar
Me: yes
Me: we tell everyone it's for the sake of ousting a terrorist dictator, which to some degree is true
Me: but oil is a damn big fringe benefit, don't you think?
Him: some degrees, well put
Him: yes I agree
Him: so really we are the aggressors, we are the bullies
Him: driven by our consumers
Him: who want better prices, and more fringe benefits
Him: We have become a school playground
Me: and how much economic growth do you think iraq will be able to undergo, if we are its primary economic partner (though "partner" is a loose term) as well as its primary care provider
Me: stealing people's lunch money, yes
Him: man, this is insane
Me: it will be a two-member market, and we will flood them with our cheapo products while not allowing them to do business with anyone else
Me: and then we will complain about how much aid we have to send over there, man, why won't these people get a grip and get organized
Me: so then we'll do it for them, and we'll have another little puerto rico, another little guam, another little ngo dinh diem vietnam
Him: well in a sense it is the fault in Democracy
Him: Everyone is concerned with themselves, and not the "global good"
Me: ideal democracy is where the two intersect
Him: that is a simplification, but I don't think it is wrong
Me: but somehow we never seem to get that far


quod erat demonstrandum